Small Shift of the Lip, Big Shift in the Sound
A few weeks ago I saw a brief instructional video by monster sax player and educator, George Garzone. In the video, he takes on a plethora of topics, but one thing he said really stood out to me.
George says that the first thing he does when a new student comes to him is have the student “release” the lower lip. since most of them come in playing with the lower lip tucked in over the bottom teeth. George describes this release of the lower lip as “being a religious experience” for the students, as they find that within the span of thirty seconds, their tone becomes radically bigger. And of course it makes sense. Without those rock-hard teeth clamping down on the mouthpiece, the reed is going to vibrate a whole lot more, and more reed vibration equals more sound.
As one of those players who’s always played with the bottom lip in, when I took George’s advice and moved the lip out, I too had the religious experience of hearing my tone sound as big as a truck, and I haven’t been able to bring myself back since.
My first attempts at this type of embouchure involved sticking that bottom lip out as though I was frowning. However, the frowning embouchure soon became a true frown as I noticed a couple of things when playing this way:
- My chops got completely worn out within a matter of minutes.
- I had air rushing out of the top of my mouthpiece due to the wearing out of the chops.
- When playing anywhere towards the top of the saxophone’s register, I found myself squeaking like a middle school clarinetist in their first week of band practice.
So clearly this was not going to be a simple matter of moving the lip and voila! - all my problems are solved. No, this was and still is going to be a bit of a project.
Through a bit of research, I’ve learned a few key considerations:
- The lower lip should not necessarily be sticking all the way out as much as it should simply serve as a support for the mouthpiece. Ideally, the lower lip is pressing against straight up against the lower teeth. Saxman and teacher Pete Thomas describes: “...if you think of the lip in profile, it is more or less pointing straight up, like the letter I. The pressure on the reed causes it to become a T.”
- Sticking that lower lip all the way out can feel unnatural and a bit contorted. At the end of the day, we have to find a way to play where our embouchure feels natural. Jerry Bergonzi refers to this approach as the “no embouchure embouchure,” saying that this embouchure is what we were born with and is the most natural way to play.
- As I mentioned to earlier, because we no longer have the stiffness of the lower teeth supporting the mouthpiece, we will be flexing unfamiliar muscles to keep the sound going, so don’t be shocked if you find you chops getting tired more than usual.
- Since the lower lip is going to remain a bit looser, we can’t be counting on it as much for keeping us in tune. Instead, we will need to experiment with using the tongue, throat, and shape of the oral cavity to control our intonation, so this will be a process in and of itself. Practicing on the mouthpiece without that sax should be of great help in wrangling that pitch without the benefit of the lower lip.
Flex those Muscles
Another Pete Thomas tidbit that I’d like to share is the following exercise which can be done without the saxophone:
“Open your mouth, press down on your lower lip (not curled over the teeth but keep it fairly firm) with a finger and say “yah yah yah”. You will find it’s possible to move your finger by doing that.”
This is a great way to isolate those lower lip muscles and get yourself in shape for this new tone-tripling lip position.
Embouchures in Action
(Click photos for a larger view.)
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- George Garzone
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- Johnny Griffin
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- Dexter Gordon
A Time and Place for Everything
Although playing with the bottom lip out can increase the size of your sound, in certain instances, it may not be the best choice. For example if you are playing classical music, then the sound that’s required for that style is generally achieved by playing with the bottom lip in.
And since there are no rules in music, you may find that you like the sound you get with the lip in better than with the lip out. In fact, the master himself, John Coltrane played with the lower lip and the upper lip both tucked in. At the end of the day, it’s all just a matter of personal taste.
So tell us, where goes that lip when you play?
Category: Best of the Blog, Best Saxophone Tips and Techniques
About the Author
I've been playing the sax since the late 80's, but my musical journey has run quite the gambit. The musical rap sheet includes tours with the Tommy Dorsey Orchestra and reggae master Half Pint, center stage at the L.A. Music Center, cozy cafes, raucous night clubs, gear-drenched studios, and the pinnacle of any musician's career - playing weddings in New Jersey! (duh). There's a lot of other stuff too, but you should be reading these blog posts and leaving comments instead. Now off you go!View Author Profile
Doron,
I’m with the don’t-curl-lip-over-teeth school, too.
Have you seen my vids about natural embouchure?
see ya!
~Rick
Hey there Rick,
I’d love to see your videos about natural embouchure, can you please leave a comment with the URL(s)?
Thanks!
Doron
Sure. It’s divided into three videos:
Natural Embouchure Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0IijB7gxPg
Natural Embouchure Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib9rhuk9HXs
How Much Mouthpiece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU5gIhwc5Qo
Here’s what Phil Barone had to say about them:
“This is a really great post and video. I’ve been saying this for years and is what Joe Allard taught me. I’ve also been telling all of my customers the same thing and you’d be really surprised how many players don’t take in enough mouthpiece. But after all, who teaches how much mouthpiece to take in your mouth? It’s really easy to just not do it. The problem is getting past that initial period when it doesn’t sound very good; it takes a couple of days at the most before it starts to sound normal; before that it sounds crass. I know some people don’t agree with this. Also, check out photos of Trane and sonny Rollins playing, they eat the mouthpiece. ”
This may not work for everybody. But, as a rule, it seems sensible that instrumentalists should always try the most physically natural and comfortable approach to playing, as our individual bodies dictate.
sincerely,
~ Rick
Love these videos, will feature them on the site so that everyone gets a chance to see them. Thanks Rick!
[...] For those of you who’ve been keeping up with the blog (and shame on you if you’re not one of those people), I’ve recently been putting out articles that have to do with the art of saxophone tone creation, including articles on overtones, practicing on the mouthpiece, and proper positioning of the lower lip. [...]
Crazy I just went through this exact same experience from that same Garzone video! Nuts.
Yeah, really eye (and sound) opening stuff!
Hey my name is chad, I want to become a better Alto player and I looked over this article, but I just can’t seem to be able to do it. My teeth keep moving toward my lip I feel like I just cant do it. =/
Hello Chad,
You might want to try playing with your lip all the way out, and then slowly tucking it in more and more until you find a natural place for it. It will take some time to get used to this, but if you’ve put in a few weeks or so and still no result, there’s nothing that says you can’t go back to the lip in method. The point is for it to feel as natural as possible while getting the best possible sound.
I hope that helps! All the best,
Doron
Ok I will keep trying ive got seven years of the teeth way under my belt sooo this might take a while! by the way I love the site!
Cool that you’re willing to be open-minded and persevere. So glad you like the site as well- it’s very inspiring to hear reactions like that!
Will I have been working on this and it really made my tone like O.O! I enjoy it so much!!!
Chad, so glad it’s been helping you, as this is what the site is all about! Keep on swingin’ my friend (or classical-ing if that’s your thing, either way, keep doin’ it!)
Natural emboucher, who would have thought ;) I spent many hours watching videos and photos of the great players, looking to copy their expression, where they puff, where they place their lips, the corners the apparent strains on the chin and cheek and all over, and I had to conclude that the emboucher style and the excellence of the sound were largely independent, which suggests yes, to each his own so long as you are true to yourself. There are very few general rules beyond, “If you like the sound and like doing it, keep doing it, otherwise try something else.”
It’s still good to know what’s possible, though, in case you need to try something dramatically ‘else’. A clarinetist recently told me he’d seen a sax player with bad teeth play with the mouthpiece inverted. I’d need to see that for myself to believe it, but there you have it, it may be another possible ‘else’.
I had only one proper ‘lesson’, with the legendary Canadian avant-guard player Morey Coles; backstage at a gig a the Music Gallery in the 70′s, I asked him if he could teach me he said sure, so I asked when we could start and he said why not right now. “Do you have a saxophone?” Yes, I said, it was at home. With a big friendly smile he answered, “Then go home, and PLAY it!”
It was excellent advice.
Hello MtG,
Sounds like Morey was quite a character! As for the embouchure, I agree, there is definitely a tendency to overcomplicate things. Like you said, there really are no rules, as long as it feels and sounds good, then it is good.
Of course, on the way to finding that natural embouchure, it’s good to experiment with a few different approaches, but the goal is for ease of playing.
Thanks for stopping by,
Doron
Indeed he was, and Morey was one heck of a player too, in an Anthony Braxton sort of tradition, and I often wonder what ever happened to him.
but yes, I think it is important to seek and listen to what anyone has to say about what works for them because quite often what someone says my not be what you need, but it might inspire you toward what you need. The clarinetist blogger David Thomas wrote recently, on the subject of that “Good classical tone” that if you find the balance of the embouchure that is the easiest, most effortless way to get a solid sound, you will find that it is good sound — and this from a player with a major orchestra! — it reminded me of Bucky Fuller saying that it was AFTER he had built the first geodesic dome that he noticed that it was beautiful.
I think those of us living in these modern times are at a disadvantage. We are so accustomed to ‘difficult’ technology, technology that was made to make money for its creators and only peripherally to be mindful of its users. We expect computers to be finicky and crash, cars to have quirks, even multiple screwdrivers that have to be tapped a special way to get the thing to retract properly. Our musical instruments, on the other hand, come down to us from another world, a very different world where the performance of the device was of primary importance, as William Burroughs said, “Technology should serve the body, not enslave the mind” — our instruments have centuries of accumulated improvements that have been entirely directed at matching the machine to the player, so it stands to reason that while a 1915 Conn might be a nightmare to play (they are!) the modern machines should be and largely are really very well matched to our physiology!
Wow, some pretty in-depth views on the bigger picture as it relates to music. I too often wonder if all of this time in front of the computer is really saving us time. I know that it is making the world better in certain ways, giving people all over the world the power to create all sorts of great things.
The saxophone is a relatively young instrument though, but I think that it will eventually become even better matched to our physiology (damn palm keys!).
[...] often we overcomplicate things. We should never twist, contort, and strain ourselves while playing. We (hopefully) don’t struggle and strain when we speak, so why all the painful effort while [...]
[...] Espoused by greats such as George Garzone and Jerry Bergonzi is the “no embouchure embouchure” where the lip is positioned naturally, not necessarily in or out. But that’s a topic for a whole other article which you can read here. [...]
this wonderful piece opened my eyes to the world of blowing the saxophone since a half a century!
My god, i cant’t believe that i could play so easy using the suggestions especially after havin’ looked at the photos.
Thank you very much and please continue in the teaching!
Toni
Hello Toni,
Wow, I can’t say how happy I am that this article helped you as much as it did! I think that looking closely at the embouchure is important for all of us to do so that we’re not just blindly blowing out of the horn, but consciously creating the sound that’s in our ears.
Thanks for the kind words, all the best,
Doron
[...] Long Tones As my good friend and saxophone bad-arse Tim Wilcox showed me, I practice fading my notes in as though they came out of nowhere, going all the way up into the fortissimo range, and then coming back down to fading out. However, I make it a point to not remove the horn from my mouth between notes. This robs my chops of the chance to recuperate, thereby strengthening them.I also make it a point to be conscious of biting down too hard on the mouthpiece with the upper teeth. I’ve noticed great results from a combination of the Joe Allard school of tone production as well as the “No Embouchure Embouchure” as espoused by Jerry Bergonzi. My bottom lip is not rolled in all the way, nor is rolled out like I’m puckerin’ up for a big fat kiss. This natural way of playing has made my tone noticeably bigger. More on the topic of lip position in this article here. [...]
I recently started working on this same thing, and something that is helping a lot was going and buying the same mouthpiece I’m used to with my former lip-over-bottom teeth embouchure, but three tip openings shallower, and using softer reeds. I think one reason people don’t try it out more is that the muscle use is different enough that if you try it out on your regular rig ( assuming you’ve been playing a long time and built up your previous embouchure ), you just sound terrible and can’t control it at all. But now I’m amazed that when I get it right, on a 6 instead of a 7*, I can get fatigued on such a soft rig and get a sound as big as on my 7*. Thanks for the post!
Hello Iain,
Wow, that’s a really cool idea! I to have noticed some sound control issues when it comes to playing with a more natural embouchure, so I can see how your approach makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for sharing!
Doron
Hello Doran,
I am playing saxophone for a quit few years and I always had a problem with my embouchure. My lower teeth cut in my lower lip. I play the lip out. I tried many ways to solve this problem. I even went to a dentist that she round a little the sharp corners of my lower teeth and it reduced the problem at 20%, but still it hurts.
So, recently as I was thinking about it, I came to a conclusion that maybe my saxophone is tuned to low and subconsciously I try to compensate it with applying more pressure on the read which is causing the lip being hurt by teeth?…
So, I pushed the mouthpiece in, and it looks like my lower lip is a lot more relaxed now then before.
But now I have another problem – many notes sound out of tune and I need to blow the long notes literally to relearn to play and stay in tune.
So, since it’s my own discovery, and I just started doing it a few days ago, could you please advice me if what I am doing is right and if the fact of a sax being tuned too low could really be the cause of a problem? Or am I going in a wrong direction?
Hello Denis,
As far as embouchure goes, my personal opinion is that it’s not so much that the lower lip is tucked in over the teeth, or sticking outwards, but just that the lower lip is positioned *naturally.*
In other words, your lower lip should be exactly as it would be if you were talking, but you just happen to have a mouthpiece sitting on it. The challenge is to support the mouthpiece with the muscles in the lower lip instead of simply using the bottom teeth. The lower lip is obviously going to be softer than the lower teeth, and that softer surface will allow the reed to vibrate more freely. Of course, it will take time to get used to playing this way and you may find your embouchure getting tired after just a short amount of time, but you can build up those muscles and not have to worry about the fatigue so much.
With regards to the intonation, my opinion on that is that proper intonation really comes from your ears. I have to first be able to *hear* the notes in tune before I can play them in tune. Once I’m hearing the notes in tune, then my body naturally makes the adjustments.
Many people use the bottom lip to tune, and there are many excellent teachers who recognize that way of tuning. In fact, I do this quite a bit. But you can also adjust your pitch with the muscles inside your mouth and your throat. I’d take a look at this article about practicing with the mouthpiece alone, and that should help give you another level of control.
http://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com/improve-your-tone-without-picking-up-the-horn/
Also, if you want to practice playing in tune, I set up a little exercise here that may help (mp3 and printable exercises at the bottom of the article):
http://www.bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com/do-you-play-out-of-tune/
I hope all of that helps!
Doron
Thank you Doron for your quick answer!
Tell me please once gain, what do you think: the saxophone being tuned too low could be a problem of a too much pressure on a lower lip?
Actually, squeezing up with the lower lip would make you play *sharper.* If you horn is generally too low/flat, then I would simple push the mouthpiece in on the cork some more. There are always going to be some notes that are consistently more difficult to tune (like the middle C# and middle E), but that’s normal. As long as your horn has been looked at by a good repairman at least somewhat recently, you should be able to play in tune by developing your ear more and practicing playing along with recordings.
You may want to consider some of Greg Fishman’s books, since they come along with CDs of Greg playing, so you can play with the recording and practice your pitch that way:
http://www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com
Thank you Doron!
Hi Doran,
just fell on this article:
http://www.steveduke.net/articles/mouthpiece.shtml
I agree with him that when you push the mouthpiece further in, the embouchure becomes more relaxed and it’s easier to blow, you get less tensed and tire less. Well, I still need some more time to really make sure if it’s a solution for me, since I discovered it only a few days ago and presently am at the stage of experimenting and actually breaking the habits I was practicing for many years….
I was a saxophone student of Steve Duke’s at NIU in the mid-90′s. He is a master teacher, and master saxophonist. He was indeed a student of Jim Riggs at North Texas, and knows the score.
Well, if Steve has Rick’s stamp of approval, then you’d probably do well to take Steve’s suggestions to heart! As long as you can find a way to play naturally and comfortably, then you’re on track to make major advances in your playing. Keep going for it!